By Tony Attwood
You might remember 1991. But just in case not, here’s what happened. We got drawn away to Wrexham in the FA Cup. 4 January 1991.
We had quite a decent team. Seaman, Dixon, Winterburn, O’Leary, Rocastle, Adams, Smith, Merson.
You might remember some of those guys. We still chant Rocastle’s name as a sacred memory. There’s a statue up to Tony Adams. You may have noticed it as you come over the bridge.
So a fairly solid side.
And we lost 1-2.
To Wrexham.
Fortunately no one ordered a mass clear out of the club’s players. Seaman, Dixon, Winterburn, O’Leary, Rocastle, Adams, Smith, Merson – it was thought that some of them at least might have something more to give to Arsenal.
And of course that was not the only Cup disaster that Arsenal has suffered. Here are some others, just in case you think that yesterday’s poor performance has never happened before.
4 January 1958. FA Cup. Lost to Northampton Town 1-3 (Northampton is my nearest league club. There are still people around who talk about being there on that day).
3 January 1965. FA Cup. Lost to Peterborough 1-2
18 January 1960. Lost to Rotherham 0-2
October 2 1973. League Cup. Lost to Tranmere. This one is particularly interesting because it included a number of players who had won the Double in 1971. Bob Wilson in goal, plus Rice, McNab, Simpson, Armstrong, Ball, Radford, Kennedy, Storey. Just consider those last three names and the goalkeeper. And we lost to Tranmere.
29 August 1978. League Cup. Lost to Rotherham 1-3
11 December 1980. League Cup. Lost to Swindon 3-4
4 January 1985. FA Cup Lost to York 0-1 (that team include Lukic, Samson, Talbot, O’Leary, Marriner, Woodcock, Charlie Nicholas, Steve Williams.
22 November 1989. League Cup. Lost to Oldham 1-3
My point is that upsets against lower league clubs happen. The difference is that until now it has never happened to Mr Wenger. But it happened under Bertie Mee, George Graham and the rest. It hurt just as much – I can remember the Wrexham and York defeats particularly well – not only how I felt that day but also the next day. And the next.
In a while I am going to put a piece on the Arsenal History Society site about one such match – significant because it was the last Cup match under Herbert Chapman. It was the last not because some proto-AAA group forced Chapman out but because sadly he died. But it shows how everyone can have this type of upset.
But for now I want to consider 3 January 1948. Long before most of today’s supporters at the Emirates were born. We lost 0-1 to….. Bradford. Tom Whittaker, one of the greatest servants the club has ever known, was the manager that day. It is worth recalling because we went on to win the league that season.
My point is not that we will win the league this season, but rather that these upsets happen. They happen not just to Arsenal but to all top clubs. Man U, Liverpool… clubs that have had long runs at the top, have all suffered ignominious defeats.
Judgements should be made over time, not day by day. You can say, Arsenal has not won a trophy for 7 years, and make a case for wholesale regime change. Or you can look at the fact that we have been in the knock out stages of the Champions League for 13 consecutive years and say, that is incredible, and could never have been imagined in previous eras.
I favour the latter interpretation, but I can appreciate the former. But any sort of reaction based on one game, or indeed even one season, is in essence the Tottenhamisation of Arsenal. It’s what clubs that have recently celebrated 50 years since they last won the league do. I don’t think it is what Arsenal should do.
—————–
The books…
- Woolwich Arsenal: The club that changed football – Arsenal’s early years
- Making the Arsenal – how the modern Arsenal was born in 1910
- The Crowd at Woolwich Arsenal FC: crowd behaviour at the early matches
The sites…
- For the parent who really wants to know what is really going on in schools
- Referee Decisions - just what are the refs up to this season?
- Parent News - what is going on in schools these days?
- The weight loss programme: The only guaranteed wayto stay fit
Tasos,
When was Bill Shankley Arsenal’s manager?
Brickfields,
I thought Tony started this site, and thankfully he has a broad mind.
@Tasos, most people on here support Arsenal, otherwise why bother posting here? It’s just that some support Arsenal in a way that others don’t approve of.
I think many, whether pro-Wenger or not, are just frustrated and want answers. Those that support Wenger can’t understand why he seems to be less of a manager than he used to be, some believe he still is the best for the job and others are just fed up with the tedious routine that every season has become. Other factions exist too but it would take hours to list them all.
I think it’s hard for some to accept that maybe Wenger is not what he was. I’m sure many Forest fans stuck by Clough even though he was a busted flush. It’s difficult to dismiss Wenger when he has brought so much success to the club. That’s why we get so many defensive and downright abusive responses to those that question Wenger. And why there are daft theories about goalposts being too wide and Arsenal not allowed to win the league.
I really don’t like this cult of Wenger. I think it’s non productive and rather plastic. Arsenal is not about Arsene Wenger, it’s about Herbert Chapman, Billy Wright, George Graham and every other manager and player etc.
@Andrew
The reference to the Bill Shankley was a general point.
Not aimed at anyone in particular.
Strange then that you should feel a need to question it?
@rupert
As I’m sure you’re well aware, Brain Clough fought illness through his later life. Drink had gotten the better of the once great manager.
Not a good comparison.
Tasos,
The comparison is a very good one, Clough was an incredible manager at the start and then fell away. While he may have had drink issues the real reason he stopped winning was his split with Peter Taylor.
Wenger’s period in charge has been a dichotomy. Excellent to start and then tailing off.
And Clough admits: “I dropped my biggest clanger by getting into drink.”
@Tasos, maybe something has got the better of Wenger. Maybe egomania. But anyway I take your point. Having said that wasn’t it a bit crazy to keep as manager for so long when he was an alcoholic?
lately UA has been featuring in Arsenal Media Watch section. keep on with the positivity
Tasos,
Clough won major trophies in his career in a partnership with Taylor. After their split in 1982 Clough only managed to win the League Cup twice on his own until he retired in 1994. As a duo they were brilliant, back to back European Cups, with Clough taking the centre stage and Taylor the assistant in the shadows.
@Andrew
Bring back Pat Rice then?
@Andrew Ryan,
When you are at the top, there is only one way to go.
Derek, you are full of crap I have to be honest. All I have got from you is that the boards policy of making money is not working so let’s sack Wenger as that will make them change their ways.
Tasos,
I was thinking more about David Dein. The partnership parallels are uncanny.
Our problem in the match was that we lack the point man up-front. The squad should be judged based on past performances so far this season and not on this particular match against Bradford City because losing to a League Two side is not a big deal, after all, it was 11 against 11 on the pitch and more so penalty shoot-out and they (Bradford) were lucky to come out victorious.
Why should Arsenal FC should be so criticised for losing to Bradford, have we forgotten so soon that we started the competition alongside Man U, Man City, Liverpool, Tottenham, etc, where are all of them? Or is it because we have not been able to win trophy for the past 7 years? Or is it because everybody has given up on us to win any trophy this season except the League Cup?
I think the answer to all these questions, is because we are a big club and whenever a big club lose to a lower league club like that, it is always a criticism everywhere.
It is never the end of the road, we can still get back to winning ways and trophies as well, as soon as we put our scoring problem right.
Bra,bra,bra oh lets bring harry the dick for he has done wonders in each team he as been?? Oh no lets bring Adams for he is the best and then buy Messi,Iniesta,fabgregas oh no lets bring RedNose he is the best in ref tricks no lets bring your mother for she has tactics in cooking oh no lets bring Pele he won the world cup oh no Mara-dona is the guy in all ,Arsene is gona stay ‘like it or not and he will do what he does best 3rd place. Probably next year we will buy the whole of Realmadrid h aha ha ha ha IN ARESENE WE TRUST.Those who feel he that he no-longer the man join MANURE OR SHUT THE FUCK UP.
An often heard sentence is: “we should buy players that won something”. So hell …why don’t we recall…. Denilson now?
http://www.arsenal.com/news/reserves-news/loan-watch-sao-paulo-win-copa-sudamericana
Maybe he is just what we need right now?
@ Pat re: “So maybe you don’t think people can be manipulated by the media, A. Stewart?
How naive.
People are manipulated by the media constantly, and about a lot more important things than football.
..”
Perhaps you didn’t read my opinion clearly as it was acutely and deliberately applicable to the situation at Arsenal and those goners having an issue with the Club’s management and direction. I believe their feelings are organic, grassroots and genuine…and have not been created by the evil media in the dark conspiracy to destabilize Wenger. The media is picking up on organic, grassroots and genuine discontent, not forming it. I give gooners more credit that you do obviously, as being able to make up their own minds regardless of what side of the issue they are on. Perhaps you are being manipulated by propaganda from the club’s management and its surrogates pushing a specific agenda..see how silly that sounds now? But best believe they are people who think that those who fully back Wenger’s policies are being manipulated and brainwashed..Luckily, I’m not one of them, and afford you the benefit of the doubt that even if I disagree with your position, your position/opinion is genuine and of your own volition.
Pretty simple what my point was really. If you want to have a larger discussion on partisan media demagoguery designed at influencing political outcomes on a national, global geopolitical scale, then fine..and yes I’m not that naive to believe that doesn’t occur..
Silly.
I think there is a general duplicity that people like Rupert are in thrall to.
If you ask them “Should we kick racism out of football?” they would say
“Yes, of course”
If you ask them “Should we kick corruption out of football?” they would say
“Yes, of course”
If you ask them “Should we kick slander and lies out of football?” they would say
“Yes, of course”
Ok, so we establish a common ground of principles. But then if you point out that AW is simply standing by his principles, and yet is treated very shabbily by the British press and football establishment, (e.g. some managers call him ‘Wenger’ as opposed to Arsene or at least ‘Mr Wenger’, as well as being called a paedophile on the terraces with impunity – whilst anyone shouting racist abuse is picked up) and that in fact you almost wonder if he himself is the victim of a kind of racism, then the principles go out of the window.
What do you want, principles or no principles?
If you want no principles, then fine, you can have slander, racism, nobbling, backhanders and general scumminess percolating through the EPL at every level, if not you should realize that Wenger is in many ways simply standing up for what is right and proper.
For this I have to agree with him. Unfortunately his principled stance brings a lot of flack and detractors in high places.
Doing the right thing isn’t always convenient, but I get the impression AW has slightly higher principles than certain other factions of the EPL.
@Tasos and @Rupert…. I have been a loyal supporter of Wenger all the years… but wait are you sure Wenger is not Drinking now??? his thinking and tactics have been very strange of recent… wait are you sure Wenger is not Drinking ???
@ Persian re:” @stewart
You are joking, right?
I mean PSG is ready to pay him even more than that right now!
And they can afford buying every one, even neymar!!
So if you think there is anything, anything more than loyalty, and principles, is holding Wenger in this f..ked up situation, you should really think more my friend!
..”
Well actually I did think more, and said more and didn’t limit my argument as to what makes it easier for him to deal with his “hurt” down to only his sizeable pay. Not sure how you missed that friend.
IMO there is no other elite club that will allow for such a sustained period without silverware, what Wenger has at Arsenal is completely unique in that his remit doesn’t seemingly require trophies. Furthermore, at PSG (who has a clearly stated project to buy high and win soon and likely wouldn’t guarantee him publicly a job for life) and Madrid who he was linked to (who have sacked managers who have won things since our last trophy) there is interference in first team matters from other areas of the club hierarchies, such as with Directors of Football, presidents etc. Doubt Wenger would thrive under such an environment. At other elite clubs fans demand success, and wouldn’t tolerate such a drought with the general consistent support Wenger has received from Gooners over the last few years. Moreover you were talking so glowingly of Wenger’s principles and one thing he has always touted (long before the Emirates Stadium etc, the global economic meltdown, and oil money in football) was for his preference to develop teams, youth, and internally over a policy that focuses heavily on spending big for top stars, thus PSG would be the anti-thesis to his stated principles, and would make him look like a hypocrite if he bolted for them….
So erm hopefully that cleared it up for you that there are a myriad of reason why Wenger has a unique set up at Arsenal that is not only limited to his high pay, and thus makes it easier to deal with the “hurt” you think he is going through…
Hopefully that meets your standards of really thinking more, my friend.
Furthermore Persian…Wenger has a unique situation that he wouldn’t get at any other elite club, I believe he knows how good he has it, and he would be stupid to leave such a comfortable situation for the other elite clubs that would not afford him the time, patience, interference-free environment, and involvement/control in matters well beyond first team management as he has at AFC. Sure he’s loyal, but he isn’t stupid either. He’d be insane to leave such a cushy situation.
“IMO there is no other elite club that will allow for such a sustained period without silverware”
A.S , you are labouring under a delusion. Arsenal are not an elite club. Thye briefly became an elite club for a few dizzying years, and then retracted to their present status; they are mid-table mediocrity who have vastly over-achieved for many years.
When you grasp this, you will my son attain enlightenment.
Marcus,
Historically speaking Arsenal are an elite English club, having the third most English trophies behind Manchester United and Liverpool.
The area we don’t show so well on are European trophies.
If Van Persie was available in January would we pay 24 million for him and pay 200K per week. If Fabregas was available in January would we pay 30 million and pay 150K per week. If Nasri was available in January would we pay 22 million for him and pay 200K per week. Would we want these players in our side..Yes. Would we pay No. That is why we no longer have them and gradually lose any world class we have. In January when Walcott goes for 10 million to earn 100K per week and probably win something and Sagna goes for whatever where will we be in the league? In two years time when Wilshire/Oxlade are at their prime and someone offers 40 million for them and 200k per week will we keep them No..Why? From being a winning club who many wanted to play for and not necessarily the most money we are a development and feeder club. Wenger cannot go on forever finding these little gems…players go elsewhere…judging some of his recent signings he is now struggling why? anyone half decent can get more money elsewhere. We missed out on Mata and Hazard we got Cazorla which is a plus but we have a lightweight Gervinho, Chamakh and a struggling Giroud. I am not anti Wenger and a genuine fan but I will not be blind to what is happening. I cannot for the life of me see why so many feel the referees are anti arsenal…they are not the reason for the loss of quality in the squad. The referee was not responsible for three penalty misses in the shoot out or the numerous poor crosses or miskicks in front of goal.
“Historically speaking Arsenal are an elite English club, having the third most English trophies behind Manchester United and Liverpool”.
Hi Andrew. Historically banks took your money and looked after it. However the world has changed. Banks have become casinos.
Perhaps Football clubs are like brothels.
Madame Chi Chi pays her girls $2000 per hour whilst French Lil pays her girls $500 per hour. All the girls now work for Madame Chi Chi, except the ugly ones. Historically French Lil had a spectacularly successful and famous brothel, just off the Moulin Rouge, but the heady days are over. These days the carpets are stained, the curtains faded, and the chandeliers have lost their glory. Many of the girls have the clap and are not regularly checked. But yes, historically, French Lil’s was an elite brothel.
(All brothels mentioned are figurative and not real)
Marcus,
Don’t cheapen Arsenal’s real achievements of the past.
I’m not cheapening anything. All footballers seem like prostitutes these days, wed to the geyzer with the fattest wallet.
Supporting clubs is very bittersweet these days, I would say 90% bitter 10% sweet.
The football can still be enjoyable, but your favourite player is kissing the badge in front of you when you are in the terraces, but in the changing room he wipes his arse with that badge, as he plans his move to Fiscal Levitation United.
Meanwhile you pay a few grand each year so that the young pups can enjoy a life of luxury, in the case of some players, a life in a penthouse in Southampton with regular trips to the knocking shop….
You’ve gotta laugh as you bust your balls 6 days a week licking the sweat of austerity system, just so a few lucky geysers get the life of O’Riley.
Liverpool have won many many trophies but can they still be considered elite?
Yet Man City and Chelsea have become members of the elite.
marcus has a point.
Tasos,
Yes, Liverpool can just about due to their past, just as we can.
Marcus,5:37
That is a 100% accurate description of football as it is today. I don’t know when the disconnect occurred but think it’s here to stay.
http://www.footandball.net/tag/copa-sudamericana-2012/
@Walter, thats one way to win a trophy? who said its a game of two halfs.
Marcus feel free to split hairs on a secondary point as to whether one thinks AFC is, was or is longer and elite club. The crux of the argument is for those who say Wenger stays squarely out of loyalty when alleged lucrative offers are available to him elsewhere such as at PSG and at Madrid, the point is at neither of those clubs, or any of Europe’s current elite club’s would he have a the patience afforded to him at AFC, the interferrence free environment into player matters afforded to him, a remit that doesn’t include winning trophies as a real and present priority such as seemingly at AFC, the ability to not spend money available to him on top elite players in preference for developing within and finding lesser known talents, wouldn’t be publicly guaranteed a job for life such as at AFC, involvement in club affairs far beyond his portfolio as a first team manager as seemingly at AFC etc etc, and all the while being paid as one of the highest paid managers in the world.
So sure he’s loyal, but he isn’t stupid either and knows how UNIQUELY good he has it here, and how he wouldn’t have such a set up at any elite club or any “other” (depending on what suits ones’s preference in the discussion of whether AFC is still elite…pretty immaterial to the overall point).
Hope that helps.
Again Marcus the point discussed was that Wenger stays squarely out of loyalty when he has had (supposedly) other lucrative offers from elite clubs in Europe such as Madrid (long-time historically elite) and PSG a new member of Europe’s elite due to their enormous wealth, and calibre of player they can get and compete for now, and new project which prioritizes big success in Europe. Regardless of whether Arsenal was, is, or will be part of that elite the point is of the current elite clubs in Europe (the only clubs that can match or exceed Wenger’s salary) none of them will allow him the vast unique comforts he enjoys at Arsenal. So sure while he is loyal to the club, he’s also a smart man and knows that he has a unique situation that he couldn’t get at any elite club, or any other elite club depending on how you see us.
A.Stewart,
Wenger doesn’t have an interference free time at Arsenal. The board tell him they are selling his best players all the time, he would surely get better elsewhere. Wenger has ambition and it’s too late for him to leave and start over again.
Oh and on the talk of patience, I actually doubt that the board, when committing to the long term plan of the stadium project (which is not yet complete), had expected to win titles until it was all completed. I reckon they had hoped for champions league at best (which is something we hear quite regularly) and maybe the odd cup. There is still time.
@ Andrew Ryan – 13Dec @10.45am – Thanks for that reminder -like many I was under the inpression that this site was paid by ArsenalFC and/or Lord Wenger (Salutations and Prostations unto thee !).
What ,with all that positivity about Arsenal when there are so many ‘gloom and doom merchants of Robsoneque Stewartship ‘ (copyright pending -my gift to Untold in particular and to the Queen’s English in general !)
Screaming all over the place ,much rending of clothes ,much pulling of hairs (Robson started early !), many disillusioned
‘fans’ leaving our fold (Is that cheering I’m hearing ?),
and more black scarved waving dissenters !
But wait ! We still in the FA cup ,CL’sstill last 16 , and away from those dreaded relegation spots – could it be that we may yet be saved ? Praise the Lord !
As for Tony being broaded minded ,I couldn’t say ,not having met him, but I’ve seen him use a large hat on an earlier photoon this website ! And you know what they say about gents with big/large /broad heads – or was that big noses or big hands ?!
Oh dear ! With all that giggling ,my typing is all haywire !Sorry , should be…. impression that.. ; CL ‘s last 16, and
..photo on .. .
I carry a broad bat and anything short of length will be hooked or pulled to the fence ! And I ‘m not talking only about cricket !
I also follow that famous American president’s old adage (albeit modified ) ” Walk softly(difficult with my arthritic knees !) , and carry a big schtick !” Sorry Teddy !
oh those knees Brickfields…oh those knees
@Brickfields, I’m laughing at your mad posts. I’m still waiting for all these supporters who delight in calling me a traitor, or words to that effect, to pledge any money to our Arsenal project. They don’t half talk a good battle but they’re incredibly silent when it calls for a little financial commitment.
Mind you judging on your recent posts I’m not sure you’re of sane mind. Should I be entrusting any money to you?
@ Rupert -Don’t send money now .Stop.Letter follows .Stop .
(Just for the information of the younger generation ,that was how we messaged in those days – it was called a telegram)
I’d wanted to send it by Morse code ( yes , kids its an even earlier form of encrypted messaging – God, I suddenly feel so old!), but couldn’t remember if it was 2 dashes or 2 dittos or 2 hics or 2 burps after all that wine !
I ‘ll again kick start the ‘fans of Arsenal who want to put their money where their mouth are’ fund when the transfer window opens . As it stands we have the princely sum of 1,500 Pounds in our kitty .
As for being sane I’m not too sure but I do admit that when I’m posting at work ,my staff and patients do look at me strangely ! Just can’t help myself ,as I think I’m too funny for my own good !
it wasnt 4 jan 91 it was 4 jan 92.
wengers record in europe is very poor actually never won a thing….ever.
“Marcus feel free to split hairs on a secondary point as to whether one thinks AFC is, was or is longer and elite club.”
A.Stewart , I dont think its splitting hairs.What do you mean by an elite club? Elite Means the very best, the top strata. so to call AFC an elite club when they aren’t Winning trophies is A contradiction In terms
arsenal are a very big club…wenger hasnt helped by saying winning nothing and coming 4th is some sort of success ,well it isnt finishing 4th is failure, maybe not so much failure if you have a hope of winning the cl which arsenal havnt.I prefer the graham days when arsenal were tough to beat in all games,and in every competition in every season we had chances to win things, this isnt the case under wenger.
dan…sorry i dont wear it, its not a question of patience.Wenger clearly is not the coach he once was,our defence has been poor for the past 5 years at least,he doesnt know how to solve it.he has spent an awful lot a money on ordinary players this cant go on indefinatly.