By Walter Broeckx and Tony Attwood
We don’t mind free speech. In fact we are great admirers and defenders of free speech. We’re all in favour of anyone who can come up with an argument about some things.
What we are against is people who think that arguments by their very nature contain abusive language. What we are against is people who think that insulting players and the manager is an argument.
So for all those who don’t understand the message completely we have taken something we saw on twitter.
And if you can understand it remember that this is what we will use as our guidelines to allow your comments. So if you want to say something bad about a player or the manager make sure you show respect and construct and argument preferably with some evidence. If you cannot do this we will not show respect for your opinion.
We accept we all can be down after a defeat. We can accept real supporters being really down after losing the NLD.
But we cannot accept the total lack of respect shown by some people who claim to be supporters of Arsenal.
And if you don’t like it, fine, because there are many other sites that can be used for negative comments combined with abuse. But on this site we will always show respect for the players and for the most successful manager this club has ever had. We still honour Herbert Chapman – indeed Untold was directly responsible for having a statue of Herbert Chapman at the end of the South Bridge.
Well for those who can look further than our last game I can tell you that if you have the luck to still be alive in some 40-50 years you will see that the name of Wenger will be honoured in the same way as the name of Herbert Chapman is honoured. (If you are a denier of Wenger’s success just have a look at the analysis of Arsenal, manager by manager, on the Arsenal History Society site).
If you still can’t see what we are arguing, you do need to look further than the last could of years. Hell you could really try to understand what he has been fighting against all those years. A fight he didn’t have to make. He could have walked out years ago. He could have walked away when he knew the restrictions he had to face when the club was building the Emirates. He didn’t desert us at that moment in time. He deserves our respect.
He could have walked out and gone to Real Madrid and spent all the money they get from various sources that are never quite clear. He didn’t do that and he stayed and kept us near the top with no money available and with a bunch of young boys. Fighting against all the money in the world. For doing so, he deserves our respect.
And if all those things don’t matter for you, that is fine, we cannot demand that you can look further than your own nose. We cannot demand that you can look at the full picture and how the football landscape has changed since the Russian entered the playing field with his money. You think it is Untold, and those who support the position put here, who are short-sighted or blind. We think the reverse, and put forward the evidence to suggest why.
And if you stopped believing in Wenger, fine. Nobody can force you to believe in him. But if you think that gives you an ultimate right to disrupt debate here by insulting him, then you have to do it somewhere else because this blog was set up to discuss matters openly, in a non-abusive manner.
And if you want to repeat the media propaganda about 8 years without a trophy you should remember that without Wenger we might have been looking at 16 years without a trophy – or indeed following the history of Tottenham Hotspur, Manchester City, and Manchester United, with occasional visits to the second division (or in the case of Manchester City, the third division). And we wouldn’t have an unbeaten season to remember.
The only reason we had success in the last 16 years is Wenger. For that he deserves our respect. Yesterday, today and tomorrow.
Our view, for what it is worth, is that the only way to overcome the negative, is by thinking positive.
The books…
- Woolwich Arsenal: The club that changed football – Arsenal’s early years
- Making the Arsenal – how the modern Arsenal was born in 1910
- The Crowd at Woolwich Arsenal FC: crowd behaviour at the early matches
- Royal Arsenal: from the Common to the Manor. Coming next.
The sites from the same team…
- Referee Decisions - just what are the refs up to this season?
- Parent News - what is going on in schools these days?
- The weight loss programme: The only guaranteed way to stay fit
- The Arsenal History Blog from the AISA Arsenal History Society
- Untold Dylan - the music, the lyrics, the meaning
Does anyone have an explanation why some of the signings that arrived on the back of excellent or very good performances for their selling club only perform for one or two seasons and then slowly fade away? I have Chamakh, Gervinho, and Arshavin in mind and now fear Vemaelen might have caught the same bug!
“In those years Ferguson had money to burn. Wenger not.
..”
That (notwithstanding it’s debateable to some extent) still doesn’t change that Rupert was correct, in correcting a false statement, as no qualifier was initially offered.
A.Stewart, Nicely put and im finding it hard to put up a reasonable defence. I do disagree with the timing of this transitional period. For me the next stage really began when we lost Cesc and Clihcy, The other players who have left were just an added problem.
You cannot deny that the team or even squad changes have had a negative impact on our league status. It’s getting harder for the club and my own opinion is that we need stability not change for changes sake.
I think you may have past your threshold of patience, where others like me have not got there yet and can see successes around the corner.
If im totally honest I cannot see us winning the league for at least the next two seasons, but Wenger has surprised us in the past.
Optimism and hope that’s for me. No more upheaval and unrest.
Also, are those rumours about Vertonghen wanting 100% first choice assuirty (by the way it’s debateable if he gets that at Spurs, with Gallas, Dawson, and even Caulker all in the mix this season give or take injuries and other factors, and who knows if when Kaboul comes back), more credible than his we didn’t get him because Wenger allegedly wanted to play him in midfield and not at CB?
I find it slightly more difficult to believe that any footballer in this modern age (not named Messi/Ronaldo) would think that it’s even remotely possible that a Champions League level club would consider guaranteeing 100% first choice selection. Sorry, obviously you’re much more “in the know” than me, but I have a hard time buying that being the principal reason for us not signing Vertonghen.
Rather I think it’s far more plausible that Wenger (as he has said during that period) was more than satisfied with our options, and their quality, didn’t want to bring in number just for the sake of it etc.
A. Stewart in those 6 years SAF did not manage to get MU out of the group phase in a successful way.
Better now?
My source about Verthongen? Media in Belgium at the time.
toto,
a very interesting question.
Some rumours could say that it might have something to do with things that they put in the diet at other clubs and that they don’t put in the diet at Arsenal.
Thanks Adam, I’m glad we can have these exchanges and that you don’t class me as AAA etc. And also I’m not one of those posters who only pops up after a loss, actually I have no real posting pattern, just post whenever I feel I have something to say, be it post win, post loss, post draw whatever.
RE: “You cannot deny that the team or even squad changes have had a negative impact on our league status.”
Agreed, I can’t deny that, but I think a lot or rather some of the constant upheaval is in part a result of management and not just external factors perpetuating the transition.
I hear you about the different transitional periods, and I guess you’re right that there are some nuanced differences. Perhaps I’m wrong to oversimplify as follows, but I think in general the post Invincibles/post ’05 (with all its various iterations) is one big transitional period.
Regardless of the individual parts, to me at least there seemed a clear change in style of play from the Fabregas era onward, no longer were we the biggest, most physical team in the league, counter-attacking ruthlessly and at hyper speed (perhaps the first half of the 07/08 season aside), but rather our game slowed down, and became far more “continental” and possession-oriented and focused more on a midfield playmaker as opposed to midfield powerhouses. Also the dwindling age is well documented, but the size of players also drastically reduced, and the recruitment of players that didn’t win things/play at highest level/at other big clubs prior to working with Wenger at AFC was starkly different. The era also represented the departure of DD, and the increasing autonomy of Wenger, and also the beginning of losing our better players when we didn’t want to lose them etc.
I appreciate what you’re saying about different transitional periods post ’05, but to me they are all part of one collective transitional period, i.e. the second half of Wenger’s AFC career.
“A. Stewart in those 6 years SAF did not manage to get MU out of the group phase in a successful way.
Better now?
..”
The point made was very narrow and specific about finishing in top 4 and no other manager supposedly achieving that feat. It was highlighted by Rupert that it was an incorrect statement. That’s all, as simple as that, nothing more, nothing less…and what you posted above has nothing to do with that simple correction by Rupert.
“My source about Verthongen? Media in Belgium at the time.
..”
Fair enough, I have a hard time believing any footballer (not of the undisputed best in the world class) would think 100% guaranteed starting at a CL club would be a reasonable request/condition to make. Again there were media reports of a desire of Wenger to change his position as being a deal breaker…Anyway, I’ll move on.
Also I didn’t ask about a source, I asked about evidence that this was true.
Tony/Walter
Really well put – couldn’t agree more.
I happen to think that it’s time for a change but you have to respect what the boss has achieved over a very long period.
A.Stewart,
I hear ya, I don’t use the terms you mentioned, not out of disagreement. It’s just not me, if im going to have a pop at someone I will.
Now I don’t know the ins and outs of specific transfers and why they choose other clubs, but I cannot deny we seem to be losing out, or rather letting some players pass us by. Again the reasons elude me (wages at a guess).
The issue im trying to get across to people who will listen, is stability and a teams chances at winning the poxy league rise considerably if their defence has been together a minimum of two seasons.
The back four we had out yesterday have only played a handful of games together. No excuses for somethings that went on, but in my opinion we need that stability of time past and lessons learned (I know your going to tell me our players are not learning from mistakes).
If and I state “If” we bring in some defensive reinforcements the cycle starts all over again, when are we going to have stability at the back?
Angha & Miquel?
“Does anyone have an explanation why some of the signings that arrived on the back of excellent or very good performances for their selling club only perform for one or two seasons and then slowly fade away? I have Chamakh, Gervinho, and Arshavin in mind and now fear Vemaelen might have caught the same bug!
..”
This is a very interesting post Toto. With very interesting ways to look at its contents.
First off, I don’t think it’s as clear cut to say that all these came off the back of excellent seasons from their selling clubs, or even that they performed well in all cases once here.
Vermaelen is the most interesting case for example. When he came I remember on various blogs with conversations from Ajax supporters and in various articles coming out of the Netherlands/Belgium that many questioned why we would want Vermaelen especially over Verthongen. Many of the Ajax fans were also indifferent to see him go because they thought that while talented, defensively he was positionally suspect/irresponsible (sounds familiar?). Moreover, I don’t think Vermaelen has really ever performed that well defensively for AFC. In his first season he was a revolution as an attacking defender, think about it, any defender in their first season in the PL almost getting the record for goals scored (with many stunning strikes to make a striker blush) by a CB will deservedly get a lot of attention, and him getting into the team of the season was certainly not for his actual defending. However, many of his defensive flaws were just as evident in that first season, our overall defensive record was poor and that’s with him playing next to a seasoned partner in Gallas etc.
Chamakh, he came off a good season and especially in the CL..but nothing truly remarkable overall that season. And looking deeper into his career, iirc his highest ever total goal tally as a pro in some 8 years in France was 16, and he only got in double figures for total goals 2 or 3 times over that period. There was little to suggest that Chamakh would be ever anything much more than average. Also consider we were known to be interested in Chamakh for well over a year before he eventually came, and he was free..yet no other big club tried to hijack his signature, to me shows that perhaps his quality for this level was overrated from the start by Wenger.
Arshavin – well known that he never really got an opportunity in his favoured role, his attitude thereafter didn’t help and thus he faded away.
Gervinho – perhaps like Chamakh another that his evaluation was overrated from the start? Also I wouldn’t class his time with us so far as performing well to suggest any fade away from some appreciable heights of strong performances.
“The issue im trying to get across to people who will listen, is stability and a teams chances at winning the poxy league rise considerably if their defence has been together a minimum of two seasons.
The back four we had out yesterday have only played a handful of games together. No excuses for somethings that went on, but in my opinion we need that stability of time past and lessons learned (I know your going to tell me our players are not learning from mistakes). ”
Adam, I completely find your point about stability especially with regards to defense as being valid, and this unit would show some improvement with more time together.
However, I wonder what degree of improvement and to what level are they capable of with just increased stability.
Are you willing to consider that perhaps individually they are not just elite? Vermaelen’s positional problem were known from Ajax, Koscielny’s top flight experience was next to none when he signed and he was well into his 20s at the time. One look at Mertersacker’s club career shows that he’s been regularly the cornerstone of some very leaky defenses with very poor defensive records, and that he struggles in fast, powerful pacy leagues (like the Bundesliga and Prem). Yes he’s a German international, but the international game is generally far slower than the club version, and moreover, Germany is better, way better than 99% of the opponents they face at international level (and in this recent era they lose when they come up against equal/superior opposition in the latter stages of big tournaments). Szczesny’s been screwing up since he’s been number 1, nothing new there really. Gibbs at 23 has never remotely played near a full season because of injury (like now) and when he’s played has often been a little suspect positionally. Etc.
What I’m saying is I agree with your opinion that familiarity and stability would help but I think there are also questions about actual individual defensive quality and ability at this level and in this league in particular.
Also.
All the stability in the world will not make up for a lack of preparation and tactical drilling, as many ex-players have alluded too, including Adams just this weekend on TV confirming that what Wenger said in his presser about not preparing for specific individual opponent threats that can hurt us, was not just smart media acumen but rather true.
There are rumours that Bould isn’t allowed to really drill his defense the way he would arguably like too, I wonder how much of that is true.
So in summary, I agree 100% percent that stability would help, but I think in terms of our defensive issues, we need to address quality and training first as more immediate impediments to a solid defense.
So spend some money on top proven defensive minded players, and force Wenger to allow Bould to train the defence?
I don’t know if it’s that simple, nor what order makes the most sense. I don’t purport to have the exact answers, rather just observations and ideas (that I think are reasonable).
But I think we need an improvement of individual quality defenders, and more drilling. I don’t even know if Bould is the answer, but when it’s clear by the very words of recent AFC players that we don’t do the sort of defensive drilling that other title winning sides do, it needs to be addressed in someway and by someone and soon.
Since we’ve last won something, some very elite (some becoming elite during that period) CBs and goal keepers in particular have moved for some very affordable prices. I wouldn’t pretend that we could have gotten them all, but there has been and is quality out there that we could/can afford imo. Paying what was it, reportedly near 10M for Koscielny with just one year of league 1 experience with a midtable club at 24 and having never kicked a ball internationally at the time, didn’t make sense to me. And thus it’s unsurprising that while clearly talented, his is also clearly mistake prone that can point to a lack of experience imo. We could have done better with those resources I think.
I think also in terms of recruitment for CBs in particular, it appears that we recruit more on their ball playing ability, ability to bring the ball out at their feet and join in the attack, as opposed to less overall talented footballers but CBs who excel more at the rigous and unsexy side of actual defending i.e. tackling, positioning, setting the line, aerial presence, clearing the ball.
Size/strength seems to have declined also in our recruitment of CBs seeming to opt for the smaller, leaner more mobile type to fit our ball playing style at the expense of defensive solidity.
Vermaelen is small and thin, Koscielny is thin, Mertersacker may be tall but he doesn’t seem particularly strong and is alarmingly poor in the air for someone so tall. There are surely exceptions, but in terms of our main options there seems like a deliberate direction of recruiting less physical, smaller, more mobile ball playing CBs at the expense of defensive solidity.
What do you think?
A Stewart,
Who said footballers are reasonable persons? What reasonable person would be sad for earning slightly less than the ludicrously best paid player in the world?
Who said all (as was inferred in your post) footballers are not reasonable people? Who says footballers can and should be painted with the same all-encompassing on size fits all brush? I’m sure many many footballers regardless of their socio-economic upbringing have/had the potential to be excellent doctors, lawyers, artists, politicians, social-workers, whatever, but due to talent/passion for football, went another path.
It seems as those it’s comforting for many fans of the sport to just paint all players as stupid, thoughtless, greedy , boorish people, I guess to make themselves feel better.
In an era of clubs in many cases making unprecidented money, sponsors and manufacturers the same, television and distribution making unprecidented money, agents the same, governing bodies and associations in many cases the same, off of THEIR TALENT, why shouldn’t they make “ludicrous” sums commensurate with what others are making off of what they do in this day and age?
And why shouldn’t they strive to earn and maximize what is available given the current and recent market economics of the sport?
Why shouldn’t Ronaldo for example be “sad” if he genuinely didn’t think he was being compensated fairly in relation to what Madrid was making off of him specifically? It doesn’t matter whether or not he should be just happy that he makes more than your average office worker, that’s not his profession. We all seek to maximize our earnings relative to our field and its current prevailing market conditions.
I always found this argument of it being disgusting that players are paid so much just to kick a ball, as well, disgusting. When companies/organizations like Nike, Adidas, SkySports, the Premier League etc are making unprecidented billions, off of what they do on the field, why shouldn’t their earnings be commensurate with the unprecidented money in the sport?
A.Stewart,
Im not sure if you followed some comments on this site awhile ago about Arsenal producing players for the first team.
We have to look all the way back to the early eighties to find Arsenal produced center backs, Keown & Adams. If you actually look at how successful Arsenal have been at producing players for the first team there are not many. Ashley cole the last defender (Gibbs we got from Wimbledon but is considered Arsenal trained).
What is missing from those days to today because im at a loss to understand why we cannot produce a cohesive unit. Or at the very least produce our own defenders?
http://www.football-observatory.com/Indicators
You may find this link interesting its a site I visit alot. You mention height and other stats this site maybe an eye opener for you. I think what Arsene is trying to do is produce a highly mobile technical side capable of interchanging positions with very little disruption to the continuity of play (maybe Im being too optimistic).
You will find that our league is the biggest height & weight wise and has the most players in the optimum age range. In other words its gonna be hard for a technical side. And we are the most technical side in Europe who did not win their respective league.
I don’t think we are far away from being able to compete for the title but there is something missing and I don’t know what it is?
Screw it…..I am going to post an article disproving, once and for all, all the media inspired myths and anti-Arsenal speculative fiction too many of our supporters seem to continuously vomit on UA after a tie or loss. Here are a few issues my article will address:
1)Wenger has lost the plot…..what plot si that exactly?
2)7 years of no silverware ….Is that the true measure of a Club?
3)We are a selling Club …….What is a selling Club?
4)We have too much deadwood….What exactly is it that we have?
and numerous other generalizations and generic criticisms that are taken for granted by slothful fanboys but need to be addressed by the real facts.
Screw it…..I am going to post an article disproving, once and for all, all the media inspired myths and anti-Arsenal speculative fiction too many of our supporters seem to continuously vomit on UA after a tie or loss. Here are a few issues my article will address:
1)Wenger has lost the plot…..what plot is that exactly?
2)7 years of no silverware ….Is that the true measure of a Club?
3)We are a selling Club …….What is a selling Club?
4)We have too much deadwood….What exactly is it that we have?
And numerous other generalizations and generic criticisms that are taken for granted by slothful fan-boys but need to be addressed by the real facts.
Wenger has an illusion of grandeuer, that we are the Barcelona of the PL therefore he need not prepare for a match like any other manager would which is to devise various tactics and formation not only to neutralise the opponent’s strength but also to exploit their weaknesses. By his own admission we only concentrate on our game which means we approached every match without a game plan rain or shine. It is a disgraceful arrogant atittude display by him because every team should be respected. Maybe he still think we are the best team in England in his own deluded mind
Adam, I’ll give it a read..
Also beleive it or not I’m not surprised by our lack of producing players for the first team and in the Wenger years especially producing players for the first team of a high standard, actually it’s one of my observations for critique given in recent the amount of resources used to prop up a net increase of some 40+ pros since our last trophy in the form mainly of youth development and the alarming failure rate. It’s also an issue that I question in terms of reputation of Wenger of organically building teams and making stars of unknowns that form winning teams, as that couldn’t be further from the truth as Wenger’s title winning sides were littered with players who won all sorts of things inlcuding world cups, euros, CLs, uefa cup, olympic gold, continetal cup, ACN domestic stuff throughout England, Europe and S. America, players who played at big clubs and in big leagues and big tournaments all before working with Wenger at AFC. And even though Wenger is touted for youth development, especially recently much of the youth that has made it as first team contributors haven’t been internally organically developed but rather were well known and we beat out other top competitors for their signature (arguably by paying more in fees and salary than others were willing to for unproven young talent) players like Walcott and Oxlade come to mind.
Also no I’m not surprised by the height/weight/physical peak thing of the PL..Therefore deliberately pursuing an undersized squad in the pursuit of more technique and mobility is very questionable. There was a stat/article I forgot where I read a couple years ago, i that said Wenger’s sides that won things at AFC were the tallest and heaviest in the PL, and in some of the years post invicibles we went from that to the shortest and lightest in the entire league (which couldn’t have been a coincidence but rather deliberate strategy imo). That’s actually been one of my gripes so not surprised by what you infer, and what I would see in that site as you suggest.
@ Moderators: A warning. The negative posters on this board will eventually take it over unless they are sanctioned or limited. It is always a lot easier to spill vitriol than to craft well thought out replies THAT ARE POSITIVE. Eventually the positive posters will leave if it is just teenage trolls spouting puerile offensive rubbish. That is why I left 606 5 years ago.
I always thought football was a game of skill and fitness rather than bulk which is more useful in rugby. We should be careful with statistics because simply demonstrating a statistical association doesn’t mean it is a causal relationship. I very much doubt that the Arsenal sides that won things were the tallest and heaviest in the league. We were most probably taller than we are now but I doubt that we were taller and heavier than everyone else in the league. I certainly think the Invincibles had the best combination of technique, mobility and height compared to the other teams in the league. I would say that skill is essential to be a good footballer, height maybe so in some positions (centre back and goalkeeper for example) more than others, while for a striker, technique and mobility are essential. And looking at the best players to play in the premier league, not many would be described as heavy but certainly all had technique and many of them very mobile too.
The point came from your questioning Vertonghen’s contract demands. Such a demand is unreasonable at any club. Whether the totts took the bite is their problem. If in 3 years they find someone better than him that they would be in a position to buy, they won’t be able to do it for a reason that in hindsight will seem absurd.
“I’m sure many many footballers regardless of their socio-economic upbringing have/had the potential to be excellent doctors, lawyers, artists, politicians, social-workers, whatever, but due to talent/passion for football, went another path.”
I’m sure you studied the footballer demographics when you say that. Politicians? Lawyers? Really? As it’s stated there, it’s pure speculation, and a highly unlikely one.
“And why shouldn’t they strive to earn and maximize what is available given the current and recent market economics of the sport?”
That is very valid. Remember RVP?
The players’ earning are not commensurate with the sport’s. They are far above the norm. Any business that consistently has a wage bill above 100% of its income is simply unsustainable. Living the moment is fine. But be prepared to pay the consequences after the bubble bursts.
Yes wenger deserves respect.really he does! Hence the call for him to leave when the ovation is loudest.put it in anyway u want.this team that he assembled can’t win.constrained by lack of funds?maybe. His Achilles heel is he wants to win…his way… and then get the pleasure of sticking his tongue to rich clubs @the error of their ways.and he is willing to take as long as he can to do it. Just a tweak is all we ask…in tactics,in player purchase,in philosophy,in player retention efforts.
chibyke, you seem to have a problem with the maths. That is three tweaks already. Which one would you pick?
Wait, I forgot the fourth:)
Verthongen has also stated wenger wantEd him in mf , and he did not want to play there. And then we supposedly were rejected by holtby…..can someone tell me where he could play in,our attacking mf? Not an area where we are lacking. The press also and aaa also say we should have loris in,our team, the problem is, the spuds have let in more league goals than us. the fact is, one player seperates the spuds from us, last year, we were called a one man team by the media who levelled a similar comparison.
But a survival guide. Seems we have to Get ready for ten plus days of gloom. there will be whole sports programs and radio talk ins devoted to our supposed decline. The league table is not great , but agenda driven media myths will make things worse. the recent bid, reported in the telegraph of all places will soon be seen to be not reality but part of an agenda against us, an agenda maybe close to home. Do not pay too much attention to the uk media,they love the spuds and hate wenger…..if not arsenal itself. But this season as far from over, as was last season at this stage.
This analysis of our Defence is quite to the point. http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/gary-neville-dissects-tottenham-2-arsenal-1-with-yet-more-brilliant-analysis/
@ florian …..lol. i have never been good at maths..forgive my error but am sure you got my point.
@domhuail,
1.I’m going to post an article -what is “post an article?
2. Disproving once and for all -wat is disproving?
3. Anti-arsenal -wat is anti-arsenal?
4. Here are a few issues my article will address – wat is address?
Most stupid post i ever read.
Now let me dissect the articles points
1. Bla bla bla.. Finished 4th or higher for 13 seasons.. So? When did 4th become a trophy? Soon spurs and maybe everton will be celebrating being in top 10 for 10seasons
2.Every major club in recent times to finance build and move to a new stadium was relegated.. Please mention examples of such clubs
3. Bla bla..wenger turns profits… He makes profit, probably on player sales. So whats d’point of the stadium move? I thought it was to compete for the players signature, not to become a selling club?
4.Wenger sells players, finishes 4th… The buying club sniffs, arsenal the selling club sells. Rebuilds and finishes 4th, so? Its still not a trophy
5.Awesome football?… Dont make me laugh
6.What happened to respect… I was thinking the same thing, why cant wenger respect himself and resign?
ADAM,
your comment took me back to the weekend especially where you wrote:-
“I don’t think we are far away from being able to compete for the title but there is something missing and I don’t know what it is?”
I had this very discussion with my mates whilst watching the game and after much to and fro, we all somehow (miraculously) agreed on the same thing and that is a major missing ingredient is the something to play for and show passion for. When Wenger arrived, the team was full of Arsenal devouts who played for the badge, this was followed by a team consisting of a large proportion of french players who played for Wenger (not Arsenal). We are now in a situation where the French players are gone and hardly any of our players are here for the badge. Many of the current squad are here because the opportunity was too good to turn down (in effect, they are playing for themselves).
“I think what Arsene is trying to do is produce a highly mobile technical side capable of interchanging positions with very little disruption to the continuity of play (maybe Im being too optimistic).”
Adam,
Be honest: does/has this theory and vision actually serve/d and maximize/d the actual talent of players like: Ramsey, Arteta, Arshavin, Podolski and others? It’s the basis of the frequent playing “out of position” charge levelled at AW; that he buys players and tries to convert them to first class players at other positions than their natural/habitual positions, rather than spend more on players who excel at their one/specific position. For a related example, what has happened to the Ox??? He was touted for being able to play at multiple positions, rather than one. How has that worked out in his second EPL season? Too young now? Or too much confusion? Or is it down to sophomore jinx, whatever mystification that’s all about?
p.s. again, lest history be erased, Arteta plays where he does, yeoman-like but hardly optimal, because of AFC’s reckless willingness/desire? to get rid of/let go of Alex Song without like for like or even suitable replacement. There is not enough protection for the back for and it chronically shows up. So it’s papered over with this interchangeable parts philosophy of fluid football. That’s fine – it’s the vision of AW/AFC that people have seen, loved and crave the world over. But it is not being manifest on anything near a consistent basis (during an entire game or from game to game). Why not, would you say?
uk-oik-orc,
Why drip with such toxic froth literally all the time? Your drive-by against domhuail’s resolve to set the record straight is typical of a bottom-feeder. Either he can or can’t, but you lie in wait like a cobra to strangle the effort before it’s even undertaken. Is your uk name meant to slate those you detest as non-uk? Is there a johnny foreigner animus at work in your psyche? Seriously, why so much venom all the time here? Is it your day job?
@domhuail, Look forward to reading your thoughts.
@Toto, Were not talking about Boxing weight categories, most footballers walk around at 12 stone ish. what we are stating is, if the average weight of a side is 7 stones you are watching the female variety of the sport.
@Stuart, I think we need to bring some familiar faces back ASAP, Bergkamp, Henry, Parlour (keep him away from the bar), Overmars has shown an interest, Seaman if he’s not fishing. We are an institution that has moved home and seem to have lost a little identity (I have said this before).
Maybe it is time to take a step back, so we can charge forward. I look at our staff list and yes some have links with a playing career, at Arsenal even, but not enough.
A nice article guys.Whether you think AW has had his time at the club or not, I believe he should see out his contract,then we decide.All i ask is that we become competitive in the league, not out of it by November.If we do that a top four place will be ours and we will win more matches than we have at present.We must be within a shout at Easter.Cups will come if we are winning.Where i have a problem with many AW haters is their lack of respect to the Manger.This is stoked up by the media and then continued on by some supporters.We live within a frenzy, with twitter,forums,phone ins and everything else.A added problem nowadays is the younger generation.They think it is their right to support only a winning team.Try supporting my other favourite team Plymouth!
@bob
Give it a rest mate. U either have something to say or u dont
On to more important issues, some are saying wenger’s trying to create a fast/mobile, technical team. So he had options in mert, cahill, samba. He chose mert, and you wonder why he’s not achieving the desired. There’s no tricks, u buy a tractor you dont expect to win the car race
NEWSPAPER REPORTERS.
There was a time when a journo would only report on a match.It would tell you all and only about the play in the match.Now, he tells you HIS opinion about the Club and the Manager.This is based on the club he supports and whether the Manager in the past has given him tip offs,or interviews.Our ARRY ticks all these boxes.Oh, i forgot to say if he is shit scared of the Manager,old red nose.AW does not tick any of these boxes!
Yea, poor arsenal. We’ve got no fans
@UK, I think Mert (maybe Giroud)is the exception to Arsenals usual player (under Wenger), most are highly mobile individuals, would you agree?
@bob, I think Arshavin is a fine player, and have pointed this out when he hasn’t performed in an unfamiliar role. However when a player is asked to perform a role they should be adaptable. Maybe this no defensive work has some merit to it? But its only guess work as none of us are at the training ground to see if Arsenal dont do any defensive work? personally I cannot believe a pro club wouldn’t?
To answer your question; No, I do not believe Arsene or Arsenal have seen the best of the players you mentioned, Why? I don’t have the answers.
Arsene Wenger is a top coach no doubt but I think he has his flaws which unfortunately nobody has been able to bring to his notice.
Prior to the move to the Emirate Stadium, Wenger’s transfer was overseen by David Dein who ensured that he did not have his way all the time. One of the disadvantages could be seen in the recruitment of similarly endowed players all across the various positions. He has a soft spot for players that are short with a low back lift (check his interviews about 4-5 years ago). That affected the balance of the team.
Also, because he was solely responsible for the recruitment and retention of players, he got sentimental over the course of time. Take for instance the Carlings Cup final match of 2007, he should have fielded his strongest squad against Chelsea but because of the envisaged pride that would have gone with the victory, he stuck to the youngsters who did not possess enough arsenal to defeat Chelsea. That gave Chelsea the psychological edge over Arsenal which they still enjoy till date. The triple matches against Liverpool in 2008 should also have been given some priority – League over Europe or vice versa. He drew both home matches and lost the return leg of CL. And recently, we saw the 2011 season where the team was still in contention in all the competitions as at February. Given the challenges and pressure of winning a trophy then, ideally he should have set a priority by rotating the squad and fielding his strongest players for not more than 2 of the 4 competitions.
In addition, Wenger took it upon himself to start negotiating the contract of his players which was done basically not to the advantage of the squad but in furtherance of his socialist policies. For example, Kanu had to leave when he was offered an extension to his contract with a pay cut at 28 when he should be getting the best contract of his career. He promptly left and four years afterward scored both goals in the S/Final and Final matches that won the FA Cup for Portsmouth. Same could be said for Sol Campbell, Viera, Edu and Ashley Cole (L5,000 difference in wages per week) to mention a few.
So progressively he began to lower the quality of the players in the team and reducing their self belief of being able to win any trophy but this did not reflect immediately until now as the remaining talented players left over the past 3 seasons.
The current squad is, in my opinion, punching above their weight in performance as the quality is really poor for a club of Arsenal’s standard. To add to this, their potentials seem not to be maximized as a result of some tactical and technical deficiencies on the part of the coaching crew.
@adam
I would say no. We have giroud,squilacci,chamakh,bendtner,denilson etc @least presently. Plus in recent past silvestre, d’2nd coming of campbell,fabregas etc.
But even if were to agree wit you, i wouldnt say we are more mobile than the big teams around. To make it in the premiership pace is important… But then whatever the case you’d have to ask, if this is a person’s plan, why willfully sabotage it? My guess would be, due to incompetence or ego -in a stand against popular thought, the man decides to; how is it put? Cut the nose to spite his face?
Tops sides defend and defend collectively with clear instruction. It was an education to see AC Milan snuff out Barcelona in the San Siro. Also Mourinho’s teams know how to defend and watch out any player not carrying out his instructions. Lessons to be learnt. Are Arsenal learning these lessons?. Wenger points to less goals conceded than most other teams…anyone buy that as a positive? The fact remains we have not won many of the big games this year due to fragile defence. In all these games we have looked the better side or at least as good going forward apart from Bayern who outclassed us. There is a pattern that has emerged over the years…remember Arshavins night at Anfield..the second half at Newcastle, Blackburn, Bradford, Birmingham in the Cup Final. Pressure on… does our defence survive???. Failure by Wenger to buy a decent back four, Mertersacker and now Vermaalen come under attack as reasons. Even the young Schezney is now being doubted. When our attacking game is overwhelming teams we look irresistable. Look how quickly the top teams mid fields retreat to defensive positions once the attack has failed. Look how many times our midfield lags behind the game line and fail to plug the gaps. I’ve stopped blaming any individual player…Ramsey, Arteta, Cazorla and Wilshire run their socks off. I dont think the managers tactics have changed over the years..the modern game tactically may well have moved on. For me this is why Viera was such a great player under Wenger.